This person's diary is what's wrong with our party.

Please read this diary before reading mine --

http://mydd.com/story/2005/8/22/181835/318#1

I hope that Chris Bowers or Jerome Armstrong front pages his recent diary for everyone to see.  I hope everyone reads it so every one will be able to recognize quickly why our party is so flush with ass clowns and why we are in danger of becoming the permanent minority party rather than a the majority party in exile.

The easy answer is he's just some bitter hater who's candidate is getting killed by the support that Clark enjoys in the netroots.  

It also explains the comical "freeping" explanation for Clark's dominating showing in kos and mydd polls even though he knows that these polls cannot be "freeped" since you've got to have an account at these sites to vote.

It probably also explains the even funnier "its because Clark has a vibrant and large community that his supporters can freep polls" explaination as to why Clark's support really doesn't exist.

The truth is that while sometimes its fun for people like me and other Democrats to spend a few moments quickly disproving and debunking attacks on fellow Democrats from people like craverguy who seem to use the internet to find web things that were debunked and laughed at over a year ago but not able to use it to fact check before presenting an article that contains this gem "Matt Drudge really did his homework on this.".

The fact is that Clark voted for Reagan A QUARTER OF A CENTURY AGO.  Great.  Thank God that people like craverguy is relegated to being a blogger without a place in the world of reality and/our politics because "..over 25% of Reagan's total votes in 1980 were from Democrats.".

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Polls/reagan_ratings_poll_040607.html

I also get it that Clark has no voting record and therefore no proof he is a true "progressive".  I guess I'm still waiting for someone to explain the negative of that conclusion to me.  As soon as you can explain it to me could you possibly then call the de-facto spiriual leader of the liberal movement, Michael Moore?  It seems that he also couldn't give a rat's ass and realized that is this "proof" that ends up killing us in general elections.  Kerry had close to twenty years of proof -- how'd that turn out again?

The point I'm really trying to make here is that the Republican "revolution" was began under Reagan by this huge shift of Democrats -- Reagan Democrats as they are called today.  We are witnessing this revolution beginning to crack at that seams and their party will begin shedding some of the same voters and even more moderate Republicans who will either look for a party they can identify with or simply remain Republican and stay at home in upcoming elections.

If a guy like Clark has to suffer through a relentless parade of ass clowns like craverguy troting out discredited Drudge-regurgitation after discredited Drudge-regurgitation after all he's done for the party once he left the military and was legaly allowed to speak out publicly on policy and politics where does this leave the Paul Hackett's of the Republican Party who come disilluisoned from the Iraq war and realizing how bankrupt their party is on solutions to problem s facing America?

The fact remains that Clark probably does more for the Democratic Party before lunch than most of us can do in a year and he shouldn't be attacked with the filth and bile that posters like craveguy trott out on a regular basis.

I'm not trying to censor anyone or even suggest craverguy should be banned.  I'm actually hoping that stuff like this go to the front page so we all can recognize the grand ignorance that is on display with stuff like this and so that everyone sees what it looks like when a Democrat does the RNC's work for them in an effort to tear down one of your own to use that as a springboard for the candidate you support.

Craverguy is no different than Michelle Malkin and his diaries are no different than her stating that "Kerry's grenade wounds were self-inflicted".

Both are bat-shit crazy to the point of funny.  Both are so wrong that everyone should see it for themselves.


Display:


either (none / 0)

you or I can delete this post. The diaries are not for attacking other posters. If yu want to take the personal reference out, it'll stay...
by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:30:58 PM EST

But they are for attacking other Democrats? (none / 0)

Nice standard.
by alexm on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:32:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wes Clark is a Democrat... (1.00 / 3)

...like Zell Miller is a Democrat.
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:33:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

...and... (none / 0)

.....Kerry's grenade wound was self-inflicted.
by alexm on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:39:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

You must be insane. Seriously.

Wes Clark is more liberal than Howard Dean, for Gawd's sake! Read his damn position papers.

The cool thing about Clark is that moderates in the red states WILL vote for him because they PERCEIVE him to be more moderate thanks to his military background.

We need that to turn a couple of red states. Period.

by omramzey on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

"Wes Clark is more liberal than Howard Dean, for Gawd's sake! Read his damn position papers."

I have. Howard Dean was more liberal than Wesley Clark on the war, taxes, the environment, health care, jobs, and welfare.

"The cool thing about Clark is that moderates in the red states WILL vote for him because they PERCEIVE him to be more moderate thanks to his military background."

Or it's entirely possible that they'll vote for the Republican. That ol' "moderate" image was a real boon to Gore, wasn't it?

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

Dean was a DLC Democrat and only became a liberal to to match up with his message.

The VT Supreme Court forced him to sign civil union legislation.  Pretty progressive, huh?

You can't really believe that Gore lost because people thought he was moderate, right?  He lost because the guy tried to win with a people vs. the powerful message and ran away from Clinton's record.

And you had Nader attacking Gore for being no better and no different than Bush.  Just a hunch but I'd bet my life savings you were doing the same.

As it turns out, not only were you both wrong.  You both apparently still don't get it.

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:14:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

"Dean was a DLC Democrat and only became a liberal to to match up with his message."

Yeah, affordable healthcare and education for everyone in his state was such a conservative thing to do.

"You can't really believe that Gore lost because people thought he was moderate, right?  He lost because the guy tried to win with a people vs. the powerful message and ran away from Clinton's record."

More revisionist bullshit. That slogan brought Gore from a twenty-point loss to a half-point victory.

by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Revisionist bullshit? (none / 0)

Or the ability to fact check or actually have first hand knowledge of the Gore campaign and why our poll numbers where what they were, when they were.  

Since you didn't actually work for Gore you may want to think about learning how to fact check.  I think it's a skill that you may want to think about discovering.

First off, Gore was essentially DARK for a long period after he won the nomination and until the convention.

Second, Bush was up almost the entire time.

Gee, I wonder if that had anything to do with his sagging poll numbers?

Third, Gore was down by almost the exact margin before the RNC convention as he was before the heading into the DNC convention so maybe the 20 point margin your incorrectly trumpeting was part of Bush's bounce.  If you are I think your entire argument is dishonest or oblivious of the entire concept of polling and how to read them accuratley.

Gore wasn't down by 20 points in any reputable poll heading into convention, he was down 14 points.  Again this was because he wasn't up on the air going full tilt.

Per the CNN/Time polls before the convention --
       RNC    DNC
Bush   53     52
Gore   39     36

Fourth, his message "shift" wasn't that at all.  He was running as a populist and simply laid down the gauntlet at the convention to shock some life into the campaign.  It wasn't the message but the fact that his campaign finally starting runnin g ads but by that time it was too late and he was communicating the wrong message.

Over 70% of Americans believe they are middle class.  When you say people v the powerful they don't identify with either and it falls on deaf ears for the most part.

So in summary, there was no message change.  And Gore wasn't down by 20 points heading into the convention.

Its amazing what you can do when you fact check, huh?

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:06:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You've already discredited yourself. (none / 0)

On the diary about Darfur.  He was talking about millions of people being slaughtered and girls being raped.  You just went straight into your practiced routine.
Clark is actually out there doing real things, helping people, saving people's lives.  What are you doing?  Sitting in your mother's basement bitching about him on the internet.  
What have you done for the Democrats?  Nothing, you're a fake.
by Reg NYC on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

craverguy is an idiot.
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:51:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (1.00 / 1)

Fuck you.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 01:48:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

I see .. more name calling.  No wonder you resort to the rove tactics.. now you sound like cheney!
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 01:59:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

"craverguy is an idiot."

Do you deny that the one who slung mud at me first?

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:02:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

how is that slander?
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:06:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

It's a lie and an insult. I have a tested IQ of 147. What's yours?
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:07:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wes Clark is a Democrat... (none / 0)

Oh WOW!  That makes you right about everything!  

  Bill Gates has a really high IQ and he still fucks things up and gets things wrong!

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:27:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill Gates. (none / 0)

He supports Democrats across the country and believes that he should be taxed progressively.

What's wrong about that?

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:42:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Gates. (none / 0)

You really don't know the real bill.
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 11:06:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Gates. (none / 0)

....and he donates to Republicans and voted for Bush both times.

Again, you are an idiot.

by alexm on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not sure if that's mud.... (none / 0)

...when you consider you made the statement that Clark and Zell Miller are essentially the same thing.

One spoke at the Republican convention and attacked Kerry.  The other logged more miles as a surrogate than any other for Kerry.

I think everyone here can agree that no matter what you test for IQ-wise(Which you can't prove) -- you're a moron.

Its not mud slinging -- its a fact.

by alexm on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:37:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they are for attacking other Democrats? (none / 0)

Yea, I'm very low tolerance on posters attacking other posters here. As for the candidates and politicians.... they are open range for debate and attack.
by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they are for attacking other Democrats? (none / 0)

Yeah... but... where do you draw the line between a personal attack and an example of what's hurting us?

I mean, geez, this is getting old.  How many times do people have to debunk the same nonsense?

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:14:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they are for attacking other Democrats? (none / 0)

Is it OK to attack them when the obviously don't know what they're talking about?

These people yammer on and on and on about Clark's allegedly being a Zell Miller Democrat and calling him a Republican.

If they'd actually ever bothered to read his position papers or listen to his comments in speeches and in interviews, they'd certainly KNOW this.

It seems kind of disingenious to allow them to make factless attacks and not allow others to call them on the carpet for their sub-par investigation skills.

by omramzey on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:19:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they are for attacking other Democrats? (none / 0)

CLARIFICATION: They'd know Clark ISN'T a Republican.

Never has been. He just voted for a few before his change of heart in 1992, which he told everyone about and didn't actually have to.

by omramzey on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they are for attacking other Democrats? (none / 0)

I don't expect you or Chris to really do anything about this espcially since you are actually on Gov. Mark Warner's payroll and Chris' dog in this hunt is Feingold.

But when you've got someone repeatedly posting things that are consistently being disproven and debunked maybe its a good idea to look at the person who's posting this stuff.

Does he add anything of substance to the debate?

Clark's the anti-war and southern candidate in 2008 and while I would never believe you would allow this to go on to further your chosen candidates I believe a lot of people are seeing it that way.

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:19:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they are for attacking other Democrats? (none / 0)

Wrong again. Warner is the Southern candidate in 2008. Why? Because he actually has experience. And Feingold is the anti-war candidate. Why? Because he has experience and he voted against the war.

"Does he add anything of substance to the debate?"

So now you are calling for me to be banned. I like that. Nice and consistent, just like Clark.

by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:22:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they are for attacking other Democrats? (none / 0)

Not calling for you to be banned.

Like I said, the more people that see you pushing Feingold on the back of your ugly diary full Drudge-fueled attacks I think helps not only Clark but the entire community as a whole.

I think we all can learn a lot from ugliness that your attacks on fellow Democrats represent.

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:27:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Common Dreams doesn't use Drudge. (none / 0)

One link does not a fueling make.
by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Dreams doesn't use Drudge. (none / 0)

Yeah -- I get my news from journalist that a required to use multiple sources.

Not from a website.

Thanks...

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:11:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

Can he leave in the reference to the diary?  I think that's pertinent.
by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

  If a poster was a neo-con supporting gdub with no glance at reality would it then be OK to call them out?

  craverguy has done this before in either his own blog postings or as comments in others blogs.

  Do we just turn the other cheek and pretend it does not happen so that he and others like him can continue the Karl Rove like smear and lies tactics?

  I totally believe in being fair and civil to our fellow bloggers but at what point are we allowed to call out their BS?

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 03:18:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (1.00 / 1)

I've done this in my blog postings before, hmm? Would you care to get specific, you slandering shit?
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 01:50:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

Now did I call you a name?  Hmmmm...  nope I didn't!

  Also.. how did I slander You?  I believe that YOU slandered Wes Clark with the continuation of debunked lies, smears and yes Slander.

  Get a clue and get a life.

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 01:57:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

So you still refuse to provide proof of your slander? At least I brought evidence with me before accusing anyone of anything!
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:00:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

what slander eh?   You have done the slandering of Clark.
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:05:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

I called Clark a Republican. You called me an idiot. I have evidence. You don't.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:12:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

You have evidence that Clark was a repub?   He wasn't.

  Also.. even if he was why would that be wrong?  Lincoln was a repub. hmmm.

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:25:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

Lincoln was a Republican back when Republicans and Socialists could still pal around together.

Lincoln's Republican Party died in 1964.

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:33:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

All parties have changed.  All parties will continue to change.  I will always be with the party that puts people and the enviroment first but can still deal with the realities of the world..  
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

The Republican Party is still evil and wrong, just the way it was when Clark voted for Reagan.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:40:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

How many Dems voted for Reagan at that time?  Slow down and really think it through.  I voted for Carter... he is a great person as is Clark who is well respected and admired throughout the world.
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:45:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

"How many Dems voted for Reagan at that time?"

Mostly Dixiecrats and DINOs and no one that I would ever have called "progressive" or "liberal."

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:46:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

You know who they were... real americans.  Middle america.  Average people.  

  The end of vietnam downer, economy on its ass, watergate, iran hostages, commies, etc.. Carter could not win and people wanted "Morning In America" .. they wanted John Wayne, they wanted mom, aplle pie, a white picket fence and chevrolet.  :)
  They wanted a new start and many people bought that line because it made them feel good and they could see the sunrise again.

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:51:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

Let me amend my statement, then.

"Mostly Dixiecrats, DINOs, and pessimistic simpletons."

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:55:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

  You seem to be the biggest pessimist.  

  So because youmay have a high IQ and that makes you proud, why does that make the avergae america a simpleton?

  I am sure glad that You are not running for office because you would alienate 2/3 of the voters.

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:57:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

The average Democrat who would vote for Reagan is a simpleton. Reagan stood for everything that Democrats are against, and he made no secret of that. If a person who claims to be progressive would vote for Reagan, that person is either a lying DINO or a simpleton.

Since Clark is a Rhodes scholar, I put my money on the former.

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:00:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

You are stuck in the mode of rove.   g'nite.
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:06:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

You are stuck in freeper mode, unreachable by any information that contradicts your worldview.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:08:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

"You are stuck in freeper mode, unreachable by any information that contradicts your worldview."

hahahahaha!!!  Me?  You are so rove minded you believe your own nonsense.

  Have you even read the info that debunks your crap that you keep slandering Wes Clark with?

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 11:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

What info? You Clark cultists talk about info, but you never show it. You just sling mud at anyone who tries to puncture your little, pink bublle with some facts.

Let me lay it out for you, pal: Clark voted for three of the worst Republicans of the pasat century. If he did it because he agreed with them, he's a lying bastard. If he did it because of their stands on the defense budget, he a shallow twit. Neither explanation explains why he was raising money for the GOP as late as 2001.

Clark supposedly supports the war. But during the war, he dubbed it the "right call," then wrote a column in supprt of President Bush and Prime Minister Blair, then he tols reporters that he would have would voted yes on the war resolution.

So don't give me any crap about him being an anti-war liberal.

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:46:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Brain fart. (none / 0)

"Clsrk supposedly opposes the war."
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

  Your retrashing of debunked smear, lies and slander are idiotic.

Well maybe this fits better...

I believe Einstein once said about a fool being one who tries the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:38:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

Since I've tried this once, the definition still holds false and remains slander.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

I do not see my calling you an idiot slander but if you must.. then what do you call what you did to Wes Clark by retrashing, in a rove like manner, the lies, smears and Slander that have been debunked time and time again?
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:43:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

They are truths and anyone who would lead this party and this country under false pretenses, as Clark does, deserves to have their dirty laundry aired in as public a forum as possible.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:48:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

They are not truths... they are truths as much as gdubs WMD and trying to link iraq to 9/11.  You just can not admit that you do the same as ROVE!

  Lies, smears and slander... isn't that Rove's favorite tactic?

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 11:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: either (none / 0)

And you cannot admit that Clark doesn't walk on water. It doesn't bother you at all that he changed his stance on the war three times, that he voted for the worst Republicans of the 20th century, or that he raised money for the GOP after Bush was elected, because you are that brainwashed by Clarkite groupthink.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Evidence? (none / 0)

Clark is a Democrat like Zell Miller is a Democrat.

You're a moron.

by alexm on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Evidence -- (none / 0)

Clark is a Democrat like Zell Miller is a Democrat.

You are an idiot.  Its not slander -- its a stated fact by this utterly stupid claim made by you in an earlier thread.

by alexm on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:43:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Evidence -- (none / 0)

You're right, I was wrong about that. At least Zell Miller has the decency to admit that he supported a Republican for president and at least Zell Miller voted for Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:52:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Evidence -- (none / 0)

Again -- you're again proven to be an idiot.

I think you're IQ may be 147 in Canadian currency but when you factor in the exchange rate -- you're probably a few points above "must wear diaper at all times".

by alexm on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 04:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

For instance, he is always competitive in non-scientific polls, but in the real polls he is nowhere to be seen. What gives?
by Paul Goodman on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:38:23 PM EST

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

Nobody outside of netroots has heard of him.  That's what gives.  People who know him, like him.  People who don't know him... don't know him.  I think you'll find the same is true of people like Russ Feingold.  Nobody outside of these liberal blogs knows who he is (well, maybe they do after this week...)
by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (3.00 / 1)

You can say that about everyone but Hillary.

Feingold doesn't even poll.

It's name rec that drives polls this far out because its a horserace question.  On the blogs its the equivelant to an informed horserace question.

by alexm on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

Feingold didn't just finished a highly-publicized run for president.

When Gary Hart announced in '83, he was polling at about 1%. By '84, he had won twenty-six primaries.

Feingold's day is coming. You just watch.

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:17:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

So you're saying Feingold is heading toward a sex scandal?
by alexm on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:58:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

I'm saying that Feingold is headed toward a big win. You're mixing elections. Hart didn't have any scandals until '88, at which point Paul Simon, the most straitlaced man in the Senate, also went from 1% in the polls to being a major contender.
by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:12:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

I didn't say he had a sex scandal in 84.  Just wondering if he was going to have a big day that ended his political career like Hart has ended.

So what you're actually saying he's headed for his "big day" that is on par with Simon's who actually never won anything??

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

No, I'm saying he's headed for a big win. Namely, the White House, because Russ Feingold has the skills of Gary Hart without any of the baggage.

Sadly for Clark, he isn't invited along for the ride.

by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:24:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Russ has outsourced... (none / 0)

..the inviting to you even before he's announced he's running?

Hart didn't have baggage.  He had a mistress sitting on his leg in apicture.

There is a HUGE difference.

Plus I'm sure they'll never be able to find anything in all those senate votes or votes in committe to hang around his neck, right?

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:32:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing they couldn't hang on anyone else. (none / 0)

Naturally, you realize that Clark would have to take the same bullshit about "He wants to raise taxes!" and "He's a socialist!" that Feingold would.

Hell, they even tried to accuse Bill Clinton of that crap.

by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:40:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nothing they couldn't hang on anyone else. (none / 0)

Jesus.  This is like arguing with my golden retriever.

The reason they said that about Clinton and Kerry is because they either signed or voted for tax increases.

It wasn't a blanket statement and that's why it worked on Kerry, will work on Feingold and will never work on Clark -- and didn't work on Clinton.

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:14:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nothing they couldn't hang on anyone else. (none / 0)

They could easily say it about Clark. Why? Because he wants to roll back some of Bush's tax cuts. In the GOP mind, that's the same as raising taxes.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 01:46:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

I like Feingold but why do you have to use the rove smear tactics to try and win people over?  hmmm..?
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 03:04:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

I'm not trying to win people over to Feingold. I do that by saying nice things about him. What I'm trying to do here is to get people off the Clark train before it crashes and burns, which will happen one of three ways:

  1. Clark will be exposed during the primaries and all of the good people who support him will be unfairly tainted by association.

  2. Clark will actually get nominated and the Republicans will pull all of this out during the campaign. Then he will crash and burn and all of the good people who support him will be unfairly tainted by association.

  3. Clark will actually get nominated and be elected, at which point he will either A) egregiously fuck up because he has no experience or B) be as bad as, or worse than, Bill Clinton in terms of bringing liberal values to the White House.

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 01:55:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

You obviously only want to carry on with the debunked lies and crap smears.  Try opening your mind just a bit and really research Clark as Clark and not what others try and make him into.

  I have a feeling that will not happen with you.

  If you would like to see some of what Clark said during the prez race then go here...

http://clark04.com/

and especially here... check the info on the left.  OK?
http://clark04.com/index.html

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:04:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

I don't want to hear it from him. He has a vested interest in making everyone believe that he's a liberal! If I believed him, I wouldn't have brought any of this up in the first place!

I have thoroughly researched Clark and I have found him to be a liar who kissed ass to get ahead in the Army and now does the same to get ahead in politics. I find him to be a political chameleon who was Republican until becoming a Democrat became helpful to his military career, switched back to the Republicans as soon as a new Administration was in office, then switched back to the Democrats as soon as he decided that he wanted to be President!

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:10:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

The only "liberal" or dem you can stand is someone who is like dean or kucinich - sp? - (both of whom I like but I also believe would be bad presidents).

  You obviously know nothing about Clark inside which is who HE is and who You are.   There are many thing in my life that I have changed my mind on.  Have you?

  Clark was NEVER a republican.. yes he voted for republicans in the past but he also voted for Dems ... so have MANY other people in the country.  There are even politicians now and in the past who have switched parties because the parties changed and did not fit with them or vis - versa.

  You want Feingold.. Great!  Stop spreading the debunked lies, smears and slander that crap.

  You think it is OK for you to bring up those lies, smears and slander just because the righties will?  Why is that and if that is OK then do you think it is OK for the same to be done to Dean, Feingold, Dennis, etc.?

  Remember all the back stabbing on the blogs between candidates supporters?   Getting an early start I guess.. eh?

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:24:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

"The only "liberal" or dem you can stand is someone who is like dean or kucinich - sp? - (both of whom I like but I also believe would be bad presidents)."

Dean and Kucinich aren't even in the same area of the political spectrum. And by the wat, Dean was probably the best governor in America during his ten. No one has a record as good as his in education and health care.

"You obviously know nothing about Clark inside which is who HE is and who You are.   There are many thing in my life that I have changed my mind on.  Have you?"

So you're saying he can read his mind, can you? And no, I have never changed my mind about politics. I have always been a Democrat and I always shall be.

"Why is that and if that is OK then do you think it is OK for the same to be done to Dean, Feingold, Dennis, etc.?"

If the accusations are true, as mine are, then I welcome them. I would love to see evidence that they voted Republican, shelled civilians, and supported the war.

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:38:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why does Clark have a cult following? (none / 0)

He is not added into those polls.
Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 03:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This talk about Clark's lack of voting drives me (none / 0)

insane!

First, he TOLD Congress the Iraqi war would be a quagmire - and he was right.

Second, his past actions coupled with his statements proves to me that he will do what he says he will. Period.

Third, the fact that he has no record for the Republicans to smear is a plus.

And, finally, many Americans, including myself, are tired of politicians. I want a leader and Clark is a leader.

Thanks, Alex, for the diary.

by omramzey on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:41:59 PM EST

Thanks for posting this diary (none / 0)

Clark is a gift to the Democratic Party. A 4 star General who can pick up votes in the South, from the military, Indies and moderate Republicans. In other words some one who can WIN! Wouldn't that be a nice change?
by pelican on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:01:11 PM EST

Nope. (none / 0)

Clinton won. A fat lot of good it did for our party, wasn't it?
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. (none / 0)

Just who the hell in the Dem Party DO yo support?
by ArkySue on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:13:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. (none / 0)

Russ Feingold. Howard Dean. Dennis Kucinich. Ed Fallon. Chuck Pennacchio. Anyone who is now or has ever been in the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Jerry Brown. Mo Udall. Harry Reid. Ted Kennedy.

Do I need to go on?

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about Wellstone? (none / 0)


by Donna Z on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:27:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You bet your ass. (none / 0)

I only sent him about 20 letters in 1999 urging him to run for president.
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:29:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You bet your ass. (none / 0)

I believe it was Wellstone that quoted Wes Clark's testimony before the SASC when articulating his vote against the IWR.
by ArkySue on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You bet your ass. (none / 0)

Good for him. So what?
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You bet your ass. (none / 0)

So I guess accoridng to your puritan litmus test he's not a true Democrat, right?
by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You bet your ass. (none / 0)

No, he would only be that if voted for Nixon, Reagan, and Bush I and helped raise money for the Republican Party after the turn of the 21st century.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 01:57:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. (none / 0)

Harry Reid?

So you're pro-life using your litmus test, right?

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:21:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. (none / 0)

...and Gore would've won if he wouldn't tried to use the people v. the powerful message.

You may only be happy with a super-far left unelectable candidate and you may not have any ability to appreciate or even recognize the accomplishments of Democrats who don't fit your narrow-as-a-post-it-note vision of what is a Democrat -- but I'm glad to see you a very small minority on this blog.

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:04:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. (none / 0)

"...and Gore would've won if he wouldn't tried to use the people v. the powerful message."

Revisionist bullshit. Gore was twenty points behind Bush when he started using that slogan. By election day, he was a fraction of a point ahead. If not for that slogan, he would legitimately lost that election.

by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:14:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Complete and utter... (none / 0)

...bullshit.  More over, its a lie.

Provide me with the date that Gore "switched" his message to people v the powerful.

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:44:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Complete and utter... (none / 0)

How about the fact that he didn't even use the phrase until the Democratic National Convention?
by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:52:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hello? (none / 0)

craverguy?  Are you there with the date that Gore "switched" his message?

tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock....

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:52:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hello? (none / 0)

Glance up. Gore didn't unveil that slogan until his acceptance speech.
by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:53:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hello? (none / 0)

I completely dismantled your buillshit argument above.
by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:16:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Until (none / 0)

you have personally met Wes Clark and looked him in the eye and talked to him one or one - or at the very least, heard him give a speech in person - you have no right to make judgments. What you're spewing is just empty bullshit. One example of this is Dave Hackworth's "magical" conversion.
by donjo on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:23:56 PM EST

I've looked him in the eyes. (none / 0)

They're sort of brownish. Nothing special really. And I've heard him speak, too. He likes to use military metaphors where they don't really apply and he has a penchant for doublespeak that could make Kerry swoon. I watched him give a press conference in Iowa in late 2003, and getting a straight answer out of him on the specifics of his stand on labor-management relations was a Herculean feat.
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No voting record: (none / 0)

Yes I do get tired of the ole rehash from the primary-wars. To think that you've taken the time to read the links, do your homework, and give an honest reply, only to see the same, already debunked links return over and over and over again, makes you rethink the intent of the post.

The post referred to in the message has little to do with a belief system, and a great deal to do with mindless hatred. Oh what? It is anyone's guess: the military, other posters, Democrats. Anyone's guess.

Oddly enough, it was while researching vicious anti-Clark spew that brought me to realize just how incredible Clark is.

As for his voting record or lack there of, yes, it is a great thing to have a candidate without political baggage. Moreover, while Clark never stood up in Congress to pontificate, nor did he tour the rubber-chicken-give-me-all-money and you can have my vote circuit, he has a long record of standing up for liberal values. It was Clark, not some vote-riddled member of congress who wrote an amicus brief  to the Supreme Court in support of affirmative action. It was Clark who traced every decision found in the Pentagon Papers that led to the Vietnam war with a resolve to never let it happen again. It was Clark who went before congress and testified on behalf of new base schools. And it was Clark, who was willing to lose friends by defying a lying CiC, and tell us about PNAC, 911, and just how wrong this war is.

There is much more; today, Wes Clark spoke out about Darfur and who knows what he will speak out about tomorrow. I do know, he speaks for me. And there are very few people on the public scene that I would say that about.

As a friend of his once said: "Wes Clark does more in one day than other people do in a week."

by Donna Z on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:25:29 PM EST

A point-by-point reply. (none / 0)

* The easy answer is he's just some bitter hater who's candidate is getting killed by the support that Clark enjoys in the netroots.

Feingold is getting killed, huh? I bet that's why his support has gained steadily ever since last November, especially after he became the first senator with the guts to demand withdrawal.

* It also explains the comical "freeping" explanation for Clark's dominating showing in kos and mydd polls even though he knows that these polls cannot be "freeped" since you've got to have an account at these sites to vote.

I don't think you guys freep the polls. I do think that you'll find that Clark will lose support and Feingold will gain it as the Clark supporters who aren't cultists discover who Feingold is.

* The fact is that Clark voted for Reagan A QUARTER OF A CENTURY AGO.

And this country is still recovering from the damage that was done because of how Clark and his Republican friends voted.

* "..over 25% of Reagan's total votes in 1980 were from Democrats."

And I wouldn't call any of those Democrats "progressive." Maybe "centrist," but never "progressive."

* I also get it that Clark has no voting record and therefore no proof he is a true "progressive".

It wouldn't have to a voting record. How about one donation to one progressive cause before he ran for president? Can we at least have that?

* As soon as you can explain it to me could you possibly then call the de-facto spiriual leader of the liberal movement, Michael Moore?

Fool! The spiritual leader of the liberal movement isn't Michael Moore! Why don't you turn off Fox News and go talk to some real liberals for a change.

* Kerry had close to twenty years of proof -- how'd that turn out again?

Kerry had proof that he was unprincipled. Feingold has proof that he is progressive. There's an important difference that any real liberal could discern.

* Where does this leave the Paul Hackett's of the Republican Party who come disilluisoned from the Iraq war and realizing how bankrupt their party is on solutions to problem s facing America?

Who cares? If they don't like the Republican Party, they can get off their asses and change it, just like the progressives are trying to change the Democratic Party.

* The fact remains that Clark probably does more for the Democratic Party before lunch than most of us can do in a year.

What's he done lately? Take a job at Fox News?

* Both are bit-shit crazy to the point of funny.

I believe the phrase is "bat-shit," you ignorant "ass clown" (whatever the hell that is).

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:52:45 PM EST

When you attack with spell check... (none / 0)

...I think you've made my point for me.
by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:42:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not spell check. (none / 0)

I just happen to know that "bat" does not have an "i" in it.
by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not spell check. (none / 0)

...and a guy that if he could be convinced to spend half us much attacking other Democrats with RNC talking points as he did telling people why Feingold was a better candidate....well actually that place is called Fantasy Island.
by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:54:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not spell check. (none / 0)

Could you try to make that a complete and grammatically-correct sentence. It's hard to read when you just sort of start and stop midway through it.
by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Now you're bringing in the big guns.... (none / 0)

...and criticizing sentence structure!!
by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:18:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A point-by-point reply. (none / 0)

I sincerely doubt Russ Feingold would support your attacks on other Democrats.  If he would, he's not the man I thought he was.
by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 09:47:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A point-by-point reply. (none / 0)

If you think Russ Feingold, or any candidate for that matter, is not going to go negative during the primaries, you're delusional.

Hell, even Edwards and Bradley ended up going negative.

by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:38:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A point-by-point reply. (3.00 / 1)

What has he done lately:

Travel the country for Kerry/Edwards.
Make press releases supporting John Kerry's military service.
Endorse Paul Hackett and Robo call for him; request his supporters go to Cincinnati to campaign.
Support a new GI bill.
Stand up for Howard Dean.
Stand up for Democrats re: Iraq.
Convince Fox News viewers that Democrats are not all USA-hating wimps.
Testify AGAIN before Congress that the war in Iraq was wrong.
Headlined fundraiser for Eric Massa.  
Headlined fundraiser for Lincoln Davis.
Local fundraisers: Manchester flag day dinner, Maine Lobster Fest, AR JJ Dinner, NM JJ Dinner, ACLU Georgia Bill of Rights Dinner
Speaker at Congressional Candidate Bootcamp.
Clinton Global Initiative.
Headlined at Charlie Rangel's birthday party fundraiser.

Additionally,
General Clark currently serves in leadership roles with a number of non-profit public service organizations, including the Center for Strategic and International Studies (Distinguished Senior Adviser), the Center for American Progress (Trustee), the International Crisis Group (Board Member), City Year Little Rock (Board Chair), the National Endowment for Democracy (Board Member), the United States Institute of Peace (United Nations Task Force Member), and the General Accountability Office (Advisory Board Member).

by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 10:01:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A point-by-point reply. (none / 0)

Whoopedy-doo. All of which he did after he ran for president. What did he do for progressive causes around the time that he was raising money for the Arkansas GOP?
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 01:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A point-by-point reply. (2.00 / 0)

Are you really that ignorant of does it just seem that way? You call yourself a democrat? You're a bloody joke.
by donjo on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:40:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A point-by-point reply. (none / 0)

A wonderfully trite reply that responds to nothing in my answer.
by craverguy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:01:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]